“Meat” the Meat Industry’s Journalist: Lisa Keefe and Meatingplace

Paul Shapiro: [00:00:00] Welcome to the business for good podcast to show where we spotlight companies, making money for making the world a better place. I'm your host, Paul Shapiro. And if you share a passion for using commerce to solve many of the world's most pressing problems, then this is the show for you. Hello, and welcome to the 91st episode of the business for good podcast.

Now, before we get onto this episode, let me first give a shout out to Caroline who recently left a very thoughtful iTunes review for this show writing quote. I honestly never leave podcast written review. So this is a standout for me. She goes onto note that she's been binging the show in recent months and has learned a tremendous amount and highly recommends the podcast.

There's a lot more to Caroline's review, which you can go read yourself, but Caroline, thank you. I'm glad the show makes a difference in your life and that you've let other people know that too. And if you like business for good podcast as well, go the review and maybe your review will be read on the show too.

Now, if you follow the meat or the alternative meat industry [00:01:00] closely chances are high that you have read. Lisa Keith's work as the editor in chief of both meeting place magazine. Of course, that's me a T in place. Magazine. And now the new ultimate magazine too. Lisa has been both reporting on and editorializing on all things meet for the past 15 years.

She's also the creator of the MeetingPlace podcast and is a frequent common hitter on everything from trends to con and more in the meat space while she is not a meat company, executive as a meet media. Executive Lisa spent much of her career watching what's happening as far as plant-based and cultivated meat goes as well as animal welfare changes occurring in the animal agriculture industry, too.

As you'll hear on this show, she certainly views the animal agriculture industry as a desirable, one worth keeping around yet. She is very open minded about animal free proteins as evidenced by the existence of her newest creation, alt meat magazine. In this interview, Lisa discusses her latest trip to Israel where she tried various cultivated meat products, her views on why plant-based meat [00:02:00] hasn't taken up as much market share as plant-based milk has yet.

Why the pork industry hasn't advanced cage free animal welfare changes like much of the egg industry is doing. And more. I always learn from reading Lisa's work and I learned even more by chatting with her for this episode. And I'm confident that you will too. So if you have ever wondered what meat industry insiders think about the alter meat world now is your chance hereby bring you Lisa ke Lisa, welcome to the business for good podcast.

Lisa Keefe: Thank you, Paul. I appreciate being

Paul Shapiro: invited. It is my pleasure to have you on, I have been reading your editorials and, and your articles, but especially your editorials for a very long time. So before we get into your work in the meat industry lemme just first just ask you how that even came to be because you used to be a journalist.

Well, I would say like more in the business sector, like you wrote for Forbes, you also did some time at the Orlando Sentinel. So how did it come to pass that you went from being a, a journalist who is covering topics that were, let's say of interest to the [00:03:00] business community as a whole to topics that are really of interest to this one particular industry?

Like what, what happened that you became the meat person.

Lisa Keefe: Job opportunities. okay. Actually the, the, the fundamentals of what we write about at meeting place in alt meet are not different from what we covered at Forbes, what they covered at the wall street journal. It is the business fundamentals. It simply is focused on a particular industry as opposed to maybe a sector.

And of course the audience is different. You're writing for a group of people who are insiders. And so their their interest in topics is going to be a little more in the weeds than for a general audience. But other than that, the, the fundamentals are the

Paul Shapiro: same. So did you have an interest in meat in particular or was it really just that there was an opportunity and you fell into it and, and now 15 years later, you're still writing about meat.

Lisa Keefe: It was the opportunity because I. Had the same, not [00:04:00] exactly well covering the meat industry and covering the alt meat industry are unique in their own ways. But I have had just as much fun covering the steel industry and the oil and gas industry and and the retail industry. So it's, it's really an interest in the subject itself.

And then what makes. Much more interesting, particularly in this case, are the people involved, which in these particular, in the meeting, in the meat industry and the alt meat industry, it is a unique set of individuals that are, that are very high quality and I've really enjoyed it. And so I'm still here 15 years

Paul Shapiro: later.

all right. Very cool. Very cool. Well, I'm a consumer of your podcast and of both of your magazines and I am appreciative of them. It's helpful for me as somebody who would like to see a new kind of meat industry emerge to get a chance to learn more about the industry. So you have been a, a very valuable resource for me over the years.

And for that, I'm grateful. Glad to hear it. Now, let me ask you the provocative [00:05:00] questions straight off the bat here at Lisa, we've been slaughtering thousands for thousands of years. We've been slaughtering animals for food. Will we continue doing so for thousands more years?

Lisa Keefe: Yes, but I don't personally well or journalistically, you know, covering the industry feel that the elimination of the animal ag industry is the goal or is, or should in my way of thinking should be the goal, the, the goal.

Well the, the outcome is going to be to change the industry. Fundamentally the, the point of view, the, the demonstrations, the rise of the alt protein industry, the passion with which consumers and business people are pursuing this arena will fundamentally change how even the conventional meat industry [00:06:00] gets things done.

And, but I think perhaps the wholesale replacement. Is neither realistic nor I think, is it desirable?

Paul Shapiro: So let's talk about that. Then you, you said you used to cover the oil industry. We've been using oil for a very long time now, but there's a real effort to try to have renewables replace oil or at least replace some of our oil use.

And a lot of people would like to see it replace all of our fossil fuel use. So I presume you feel similarly, like we're gonna be using oil for a very long time into the future, is that right?

Lisa Keefe: Well, I think in, and I'm, I'm certainly not a specialist in either meat science or oil science but it seems to me that these are natural resources that have been in certain ways, exploited in, in ways that are long term detrimental to society, to the ecology, to to the economy and.

[00:07:00] But that they should be rethought in terms of what do they offer in a way that can be used, but not exploited in a way that is beneficial to society and also not damaging in other arenas. And I think that that would apply to an awful lot of things. I think that oil can probably be used for an awful lot of tremendously beneficial aspects of society.

And we simply are too dependent on it. And it's sort of, you know, we're sort of bleeding the planet dry for this cash cow in terms of using using petroleum in everything plastics and, and cars and airplanes and everything else. So I think that there's perhaps a, a middle. Some sort of middle ground in which these industries still exist, but are used and perceived and pursued in a different way.

Paul Shapiro: Got it. So if oil was the figurative cash cow, let's talk about the actual cash cows then. So if you think, thank you. Thank you. So [00:08:00] if Bravo , I appreciate it. So Lisa, you're calling, it sounds to me and, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, but it sounds to me like you are essentially advocating for a continuation of the use of animals for food, but in a different way.

And so how different would it be? Like, what is it that happens today that would no longer happen or, or the inverse, what isn't happening that would be happening in the Keith future that you are predicting here?

Lisa Keefe: I am interested in the tenants, for example, of regenerative agriculture, where an, an animal agriculture part of the economy is.

Is pursued for business purposes, but in a way that is balanced with other considerations in my somewhat rudimentary understanding of, of how that happens on the farm, it's it can be very labor, not labor intensive, but sort of [00:09:00] planning intensive. I mean, you really have to think about what you're doing and what are you planting where, and when it's a lot of hands on management that has to happen.

I don't know how that plays out in terms of trying to, for example, move the entire animal agriculture industry in that direction. I sense though, that there are elements of of, of, of the discipline of regenerative agriculture, that that could be incorporated into our existing systems in a way. That optimizes the upside and minimizes the downside.

Sure.

Paul Shapiro: So, you know, when I talk with advocates for regenerative acro agriculture, it seems to me like their message is I don't wanna put words in their mouth, but from, since I'm not identifying any individual person, I will feel comfortable putting words in their mouth since it's a fake person here.

But my understanding of when I talk to friends of mine who are very into regenerative ag, they say, you know, look, it would mean that the animals would be treated [00:10:00] much better. Than they are today, but it would also mean that there'd be far fewer of them, that we would be eating less meat than we do today.

And so in effect, like instead of raising, let's say nine plus billion land animals for food every year in the United States, like we do today, there'd be a significant reduction in that. And so you'd have people eating less meat, but the, as the slogan that they often use is less meat, but better meat. So is that what you're envisioning or are you envisioning an industry that's as large as it is today, but just utilizing different practices or would it actually be something where we'd be raising significantly fewer animals for food?

Lisa Keefe: That's an excellent question. And I don't have an answer offhand because when you're talking about the meat industry it's not, it, it is, it is inter interconnected internationally in such a way that. There may be a sector of the us population. And there is a sector of the us population claims based meat products are, are [00:11:00] flying off the shelves.

The phrases, the, the profits are in the adjectives. If you have grass fed, if you have organic, if you have hormone free beef and that sort of thing consumers are really attracted to that, but that's also also at a premium price point. And so it is a certain sector of consumers that tend to that tend to be the, the consumers in that of those particular products.

So when you're talking about providing. Less, but better meat. You also have to take into, to account the fact that there are people around the world who need to be fed and are protein deficient, unlike most of us in the United States and that a tremendous amount of what is produced at an affordable price point in the United States is shipped overseas.

So sure we could reduce the number of animals that we that are followed in that are raised in the [00:12:00] United States for meat production. But. Then that's less meat to be consumed in other countries where they might, where they can't maybe raise as much meat as they need themselves. And then, and then, you know, we have a nutrition potentially a nutrition issue.

Yeah. And

Paul Shapiro: I, I will say that it's certainly true that there's a higher margin for the adjective products as you call them, like organic and grassfed, but they are still a very tiny portion of the total meat industry. Yes. I mean, almost like a rounding error. And so we had on Rob Paul Berg on an previous episode.

I don't know if you've heard of him. He's a Harvard professor, but he, he has a, a very interesting book called resetting the table in which he basically makes the argument that, you know, look, if you really want to feed humanity you're gonna be using a lot less animals. You're gonna be using less meat and you're gonna be using not organic pasture based.

You're gonna be basically using GMO crops, synthetic fertilizers. And he makes the case that essentially, if we were to go all organic, you would need like 40% more [00:13:00] acreage to grow, which would be catastrophic for wildlife habitat. And, and so, you know, he's making essentially the opposite argument that, you know, we should be, yes, we should be eating less meat, but we should be embracing biotech in food and agriculture in order to sustainably feed the world.

And so this is a, you know, an interesting counterpoint because it, you know, right now, like it seems to me like the most popular position among many food sustainability advocates is four things like grass fed and organic. And you know, his argument is that if you really care about sustainability, the opposite will be true.

What do you think.

Lisa Keefe: and that is what makes covering this part of the industry. So fascinating because you have these great ideas and great perspectives and they do not easily overlap. I think that the good professor is exactly right. And I think that over time, a a, a, there's a, there's a lot of folks who, who, [00:14:00] who pursue the you know, alt meat, alt protein mission and, and also are non GMO and also are non tech.

They, they, they don't, they want to go back to nature. Okay. That's a great idea, but there there's a reality facing us. And when I talk. There's going to be a need to feed all these people around the world. And right now, a lot of that is being done with conventional meat production, not only in the United States, Brazil, for example and at a cost that, that doesn't mean that that's the only way that their protein needs that this growing population, protein needs can be met.

However, you have to start embracing, you know, the science learn it, love it, live it. And and, and it is about GMOs and it is about what am I looking at? Cultivated meat is the phrase I was trying to think of cultivated meat and, and things [00:15:00] that, that a lot of folks sort of reject out of hand.

It feels unnatural, but yeah, yeah, it, it isn't, it, it just, just because it was made in the lab, doesn't mean it's soil and green it's, you know, it can, it can be actually I just had the chance to to try some, some cultivated meat products when I was in Israel and it, they were as, I mean, astonishingly.

Good,

Paul Shapiro: great. I, I read your commentary on this and I will refrain from making any jokes about you being in the holy land of of cultivated meat, but it is true that Israel, you know, second to the United States essentially really is like the pioneer in the alternative protein B, especially and cultivated meat.

It's amazing.

Lisa Keefe: I. I'm not sure that Israel is second. Wow. And I, well, I mean very much as I understand it and I'm, and, and I don't wanna dive into, you know, politics and, and and economics that I don't under. Don't totally grasp, but you know, very much like Singapore, you, you have a, a small country that says, that looks around and says, mm.

You know, [00:16:00] a lot of our food stuffs that we are providing to our to our residents, to our citizens are, are coming from other countries. And particularly now I think the, the international political arena is looking particularly unsettled. And there is a move to say, how much of this vital nutrition to our citizens can be produced within our own borders.

So that, you know, it worse comes to worse. We have an option in order to, to remain an ongoing operation here as a country. And I think that that that's that's really front and center in countries that are not the United States, which is sort of used to, you know, sitting in this huge Incredibly productive piece of ground.

And and we, we have to sort of maybe think about the way things look from their point of

Paul Shapiro: view, right? We we're, we're accustomed to going to Costco and seeing foods piled to the sky. Almost literally. It's just incredible, but [00:17:00] it's not that, you know. Absolutely. It doesn't seem like that's surprising, like you mentioned Singapore and Israel because these are such tiny countries and, you know, Israel was basically in the desert.

It's not a surprise to me that Israel is who invented drip irrigation, you know, is this innovator named Simha bla in Israel who invented drip irrigation as a way to try to make the desert productive with as, as few resources as possible. Of course, that innovation in the decade since has saved billions of liters of water from being used in agricultural purposes.

I actually used drip irrigation in my own front and backyard here in Sacramento, which is also pretty dry and, and, and hot climate. So if the entire world is kind of becoming like Israel in this sense that we don't have a lot more room. To grow food, right? We don't have a lot more room to raise animals.

How many more forests do we wanna chop down? Then in the same way that we're producing more food with less water because of drip irrigation, we're gonna have to produce more meat with fewer animals. And so it doesn't seem that surprising to me that Israel is a pioneer, or maybe you could say that Israel is the [00:18:00] Mecca of the cultivated meat movement.

But it is another one. Yeah. but but it's cool that you were there and that you were trying it. And so before, well, actually, lemme just ask you about this now. So with cultivated meat, you know, this is still like almost. It's not even rounding air it's 0%. I mean, aside from like a, a very minuscule symbolic commercialization in Singapore, it's not even legal to sell it in Israel or the United States,

Lisa Keefe: or even offer it as, as a product for taste, except in, in certain countries.

Like I think the Netherlands recently approved it. You can have. Private tastings of this stuff, if you'd like,

Paul Shapiro: well, I'll tell you in writing my own book, clean meat, these companies were very happy to offer me numerous tastings of it. And so the earliest time I ever tried it and was in 2014, I tried some cultivated beef.

And since then I've had the pleasure of trying cultivated fish, duck sausage, fall garage. Ariso like a, a whole bunch of things. And so I don't know if this is true, but I suspect it might [00:19:00] be that I have eaten a greater diversity of species of cultivated meat than any other person. I don't know. I don't have evidence of this, but it feels true to me.

So I'll take it. it?

Lisa Keefe: It sounds good. Yeah. And I'll you, you have a perspective that I don't, which was that I hadn't had the chance to try any of these these types of products in the past. And so I sense that there has been a progression in the, in the quality of the end product, cuz certainly what I was trying was much closer than I expected to.

What I would buy at Costco. And so I'm, I'm sort of interested in, in what your impressions have been over time, whether in these, in these successive tastings, if you feel that there has been an ad, an advancement

Paul Shapiro: made. I do think so. So what I first tried in 2014 was at modern meadow, which is since abandoned beef and just works on leather now.

But you know, they, at the time were making what they called beef chips. And these were essentially like these desiccated potato chip looking [00:20:00] things that were made out of cow cells. There's no potato in them. And so when I tried it, it like definitely had a beefy taste, but it was not even like jerky.

It was truly like the texture of a potato chip to me. And I liked it. It tasted good to me. In fact, I wish they had given me more. I remember thinking at the time, well, man, I wish I could eat more of this. So it was pleasurable to me. But. It was totally novel. It wasn't just like that. It didn't taste like meat.

I mean, it had the flavor of it, but not the texture. It was that it wasn't like anything I'd ever had. It was like a completely novel thing. You know how Tyson is making those chips out of chicken. Now I forget what it's called, but they have some things it's kind of like that it's like a novel food category.

And so that's what it was like. Whereas now you know, just the other day, actually I was at wild type in San Francisco and they offered me some salmon sushi and. You know, it looked to me like if you had shown it to me visually, I could not have told at all that it wasn't tuna and it tasted like raw tuna to me.

I mean it, which frankly it is. So it's not that surprising to me. And, and I guess they, you know, these companies have raised [00:21:00] hundreds of millions of dollars in some cases each. And so hopefully they're make progress. I mean, hopefully they're doing something with that to actually do product development and, and get better.

But so then when do you think we, so like, if you were predicting two things, when do you think cultivating meat will actually be competing in the marketplace? And then when do you think it'll actually be some type of a cannibalization threat? Like if you look at the way that there's this backlash from the cattlemen against, beyond meat and impossible, and it's leading to these labeling laws and so on cultivating meat is a long way away from even presenting any threat, I think like that.

So what do you think, when is cultivating meat gonna be available to the average American consumer and then how long after that, before it actually poses some type of a market threat to the conventional meat industry.

Lisa Keefe: And the next thing you're gonna ask is what are the lottery numbers for tonight?

Right?

Paul Shapiro: Go ahead. That would be fun. See you,

Lisa Keefe: it is the $65,000 question or $65 billion question. Yes, because my, my [00:22:00] guess, and this is. Based on, on no particular data, but just watching business cycles over a lot of years and having tried these items. I think I wrote in, in my editorial, I thought, you know, these are much closer to being consumer ready than I had thought based on what I was reading.

And there are, you know, certainly instances of companies that keep promising that this is going to be available. And then they keep pushing that promise out year after year after year to the point where you as a reader, I would, I would read these projections and I would, my eyes would roll and I'm like, okay, here we go again.

So so having actually had the chance to not only try them, but also observe the technology in action. I thought it, it changed my thinking in terms of the timeline for conventional meat availability in the sense that yes, there still is a cost. Issue a big [00:23:00] cost issue. I'm not exactly sure how much, because companies will say that they have brought the cost of that medium for cultivating the cells down considerably, but for proprietary reasons, nobody wants to get into specifics.

So so let's, let's set a set that aside, but , but with that in mind really I feel like we're waiting on the regulators and and that I think nobody can put a timeline on. And because it's really sort of, I mean, not just in the United States, but in all these countries, it's kind of a, it's kind of a black box.

The regulators operate sort of in, in, in their own corners and that's the way it really needs to be because they need to make their decisions about regulations on on a, on the basis of factors that are, you know, numerous and competing. But I think that once the regulators get on board, I think this could move very, very quickly.[00:24:00]

Paul Shapiro: So let let's talk about that. And when we talk about quickly, because you know, plant-based meat has been the, are on the market for decades now, right? Like even, you know, going back to the Boca burgers of the nineties and even going back to like the 1890s with John Harvey, Kellogg and his products.

So you know, these products have been around for a long, long time. And even today with all of the billions of dollars investment, all of the headlines, you would get the impression that, you know, this is taking over in reality, it's still less than 1% of the volume of the meat industry. Not it's about 1% on a dollar basis, but on a volume basis, which is for most sustainability concern, what is the most important thing.

It's still less than 1%. I mean, it is barely even a rounding error. That's not true though. In the milk industry where the fluid milk market has truly actually been cannibalized to some extent by alternative milks, oat milk, soy milk, and milk and so on. So why do you think it is Lisa that the milk industry or that the alternative milk industry has had so much more success than the alternative meat [00:25:00] industry has in actually gaining market share at the expense of the conventional incumbents?

Lisa Keefe: The same, two reasons that thus it is thus, it has always been, and thus it will always be, which is price and taste. Okay. I, I have, I am a fan of, of some of the oat of the plant-based milk products as well. I'm particularly fond of CAIA farms barista coffee creamers and, and Oatley coffee creamers.

And they have figured out how to produce these products at a price point that con that the average consumer, we are a mass consumption country here and, and very much other countries have sort of adopted that economic model for better, for worse McDonald's. And the and so to be able to offer something that tastes good at a price point that.

People will adhere to that, gives them sort of the permission to, [00:26:00] to then make those choices and, and even tell themselves, and maybe other people, while I'm, I'm doing this, you know, I'm doing this good thing and this is better for the planet. I do feel that that however mission driven a consumer or a business person might be that it really comes down to sort of those limbic issues of price and taste.

Am I going, is this going to be a valuable purchase for me? And I think the plant based meets in particular are so much closer than they ever have been. And still aren't quite there.

Paul Shapiro: You're saying they're closer than they ever have been on taste, but on price they're, they're still pretty big Delta between the price of plant-based meat and conventional meat.

I mean, I, you know, I recently or res usually my wife was in Safeway and she purchased beyond burgers and they were like 5 99 for two quarter pound petty. So, you know, it's like 12 bucks a pound you know, that's not like 20 or 30% more expensive than conventional patties. Yeah. It's like two or 300% more [00:27:00] expensive.

Yeah. Yes. And, and so, you know, there is this major Delta, so you mentioned which of the oat milks that you prefer, the Cay farms. Are there particular brands of plant-based meat that you're referring to that you think are getting much closer on taste that you think are the ones that you prefer the most?

Lisa Keefe: You know, I, I Don. Want to mention a specific company, not only because that's the area that we cover. But also because I have had the chance to sample just many more different brands at various events and such plus what I have purchased myself. And and I, and one of them does not stand out from the others or two of them did not stand out from the others in terms of being closer or being closer in price.

I, I, I do feel like for various reasons companies are, are close, but there might be, you know, an after taste on one case or I've tried something else. And, and the texture was, the taste was really good, but the texture wasn't quite right, [00:28:00] and I'm not sophisticated enough of a food scientist to be able to say, well, you know, if I'm trying a chicken nugget am.

am I finding it the coding to be the problem, or is it the the, the method of cooking that's the problem? Or is it in fact, the, the product itself? I had an interesting some years ago now when impossible had first rolled out the impossible sliders at white castle. And I went to a white castle near my house and tried them and and they were not good.

They, it was just, it was like, I, I felt like I had picked up grass clippings from my yard. It was trying to chew on it with some ketchup and mustard on it or whatever. And yet a coworker of mine had gone to a white castle near her house and said, oh, and she's a vegetarian. And she's like, oh, this is the, the greatest thing since slice bread.

And I thought, you know, here, here we have an example of, [00:29:00] of the same product from the same. Source and the same. Brand of serving it to me and, and very different experiences. And not only do people have different perceptions of taste and texture and that sort of thing. But also probably the way that it was prepared was very different.

That was, it should be standardized across a franchise chain like white castle, but apparently it wasn't. And and all of these are factors in terms of perception and adoption. I haven't gone back to any white castle for an impossible slider since then. And, and haven't really sought it out in the stores.

And you know, based on that experience. And, and I would say that I'm probably not atypical of most consumers.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, probably not. And I, I have noticed the same thing, not just in my own social circle, but even in focus groups that we at the better meet co the company that I work at, you know, we conduct a lot of focus groups and we segregate the focus group E into [00:30:00] omnivores and herbivores, because what we found is that they really do have different preferences and oftentimes things that are more meat, like are preferred by the omnivores and things that are more meat likelike are not preferred as much by the herbivores.

And it's like truly different sets of data. And so you can't just like, put it in and say, Hey, do you like this or not? And your anecdotal case that you just mentioned seems to affirm that. And I'll tell you, like, as, as for me, somebody who has been in herbivore for nearly 30 years now, I don't like, I I'm PO I'm bullish on the alternative meat industry, because I think it's so important for the world, but I wouldn't care if I never ate it myself, like ever, like, I'm very happy to eat tofu and quinoa, which is so stereotypical.

Like it's just is like, almost like a, a caricature of a vegan. But that's the truth. Like I'm, I'm very happy to eat a black bean burger or tofu, et cetera. But I, I really am, am enthusiastic about the Albe industry because I believe it's frankly, the, [00:31:00] like the only way that we are ever going to wean ourselves off of this addiction to raising billions upon billions of animals and conditions that are, are totally unsustainable and inhumane.

And so I you know, I have almost like, not almost, I am at the point where I say, like, it just doesn't matter what vegetarians think. Like, it really, there's such a tiny portion of the market. The companies are not marketing to them. Their opinion just doesn't really matter here. What matters is what everyday meat consumers are going to think.

And so I, I hope that the companies, the big companies in this space. Excluding vegetarians from their focus groups when they're doing this.

Lisa Keefe: I think to a large extent that they are. And, and, and I think what you're hitting on there is the growing complexity of this market. Since the, since the introduction of the idea of a, a meat free food product that replicates, or, or as a meat analog has sort of sprung up because, you know, with all due respect to Morningstar and [00:32:00] Boca burgers, you're not gonna, you're not gonna confuse them with a beef burger you know, from back in the day.

But you know, this idea that you could have a beyond burger, an impossible burger, and I have had some very good versions of those burgers that I thought tasted very meaty. That since then consumers, there, there was an initial response to it, but now it's been a while and now consumers are starting to self-select into these different categories.

And and I think you're right. I think that there was an idea that you know, oh, this, this will be for more than the vegetarians. And yet the, the, the meat eating public that is, that is being courted in this case, I think is also breaking down into, into some different category. A lot of people tried it and then won't go back.

But then there have been improvements. Maybe they need to be lured back to try it again. I think it's, we're in a reset period in the plant-based market in general, a plant-based meat market In terms of reevaluating sort of [00:33:00] re reconstituting itself. And I think that I, I hope that companies that are pursuing this space are paying a lot of attention to how consumers and how their perceptions are changing and what their experiences have been.

And. Incorporating that into into what they are doing in order to sort of overcome plant-based meats are starting to get a bit of a reputation. Mm-hmm, , you know, as being expensive and not tasting very good. And I think that that can be changed, but you, you have to overcome those first impressions.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah, it is very hard to have a second chance to make a first impression. And this is one of the reasons that I'm so enthusiastic about using my cilium because I, I think it is just inherently a superior substrate to actually try to recreate the meat experience. You know, there's like three ways to recreate it.

You know, you can do plant protein, ISO isolates, like soy protein, or P protein, et cetera. You can grow actual animal cells or you can use fungi, like my cilium. And I, I think that in my experience [00:34:00] from both an economical and just a sensory experience, like my cilium really is the. A, a very strong candidate here.

I'm not saying we shouldn't do all them. It's kind of like, you know, renewables, like you want wind, you want solar, you want geothermal, you want, you want nuclear. Like, there's lots of things that you want. But I think that my soum is the most underrated and underexplored method of doing this. I

Lisa Keefe: think that's going to change going forward.

I think fermentation is getting a lot of attention right now as a, as a production technology. And also your idea of creating a product that then at least initially is combined with conventional meats often. That, that is probably realistically the next big step that the mass consumer market will take.

Yeah. In terms of a combination, I, in Israel, I tried a chicken nugget that was plant based, but had been flavored with cultivated chicken fat. And it [00:35:00] was. Absolutely delicious. And you,

Paul Shapiro: you thought it was categorically different than a conventional plant-based nugget?

Lisa Keefe: Yes. Okay, cool. It, it, that, that actual cultivated in this case chicken product, there was just a dimension of the flavor that is missing from a plant-based version.

And I've had some very good plant-based versions. Where, and, and it was also by the way, the nugget had excellent breading and was perfectly cooked. So you know, baked in an air fryer. So, I mean, there are, there are always these other elements that go into it. So it's, it's hard to say categorically, this or that, but The, the popularity of, for example, you know, mushroom and beef mixed burgers is really catching on particularly at, at a lot of college campuses.

And it has the added advantage, I think of often lowering the price point across the board, [00:36:00] particularly now with prices of conventional meat being so high mm-hmm that it helps to, to lower the price point of these products that are being served in a, in large quantities.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. So, Lisa, let me ask you, so we've spent, you know, the last 35 or so minutes talking about alternative proteins, but.

I have a feeling that if we were talking 10 years ago, that we wouldn't really have been talking that much about that. We probably would've been talking about animal welfare practices in the meat industry. We would've been talking about gestation crates for pigs and battery cages for chickens and VE crates for calves, which were really like the hot button issues back then.

And it seems like the meat industry's focus now is really more on alternative protein. Would, would you say that's accurate or do you think that's a misrepresentation?

Lisa Keefe: Well, I think it's a bit of a misrepresentation because if I'm a meat company exec, first of all, Most of your large meat companies have an alternative meat operation.

[00:37:00] That is whether it is in some cases, it's, it's an investment fund. But in other cases, for example, in maple leaf in Canada it's a rather substantial manufacturing part of their industry. And you can go to the other side and say, Archer well, ADM it's not Archer Daniels Midland anymore, but ADM you know has been making soybean products for many, many years and they have a substantial and fast growing alternative protein business.

Actually putting it together into something that is much closer to the consumer side of the operation than ADM has ever I think gone before. And and I think that this is in, in the headlines and things, this has captured a lot of attention in the meet executives and they are responding to that.

Some of them positively, a lot of people in the industry are responding very negatively to it, but I think that's the noise. I think that unless you are a meat company that is [00:38:00] investing in the plant-based business on a day in and day out basis, if I'm a meat company, executive, there's not an awful lot I can do about a plant-based operation other than.

Try to produce you know, the, the best product. I know how in the best way I know how, so when we talking about, then, then we get back to the animal rights or the animal, the humane handling and, and humane issues. And that becomes much more under a meat company, executives, purview. They have something that can do something about that.

They can, they can work with their suppliers. They can either and, and with their customers and work on making sure that the pork is, is sourced, you know, a certain way or that the, that the, that the poultry has been raised in a certain way, et cetera. Mm-hmm so, and I think so I think that that actually in the meet within the meet industry is probably taking more bandwidth than it would seem from the headlines.

Paul Shapiro: Interesting. So let's chat about that then you know, 10 years ago, like the big thing it seemed [00:39:00] was really or maybe less than 10 years ago, the big thing was battery cages. Now the egg industry seems to have essentially said we're going cage three. Like every, like. Everybody, who I know in the egg industry thinks that the future is cage free.

And in the last 10, 15 years, the industry has gone from around, you know, like 5% cage free to about 30% cage free. And they just keep moving in that direction on gestation creates though, which we're also a were and continue to be this contentious issue. There doesn't seem to be the same recognition even in the pork industry for companies that are moving away from gestation crates, they there's now this debate, I'm sure you saw what was happening with McDonald's and investor Carl icon about how long the SALs can be kept in gestation crate.

Like, you know, McDonald's was saying, well, we're not using gestation crates for the whole pregnancy, but we'll let them be in these crates for about a month at the very beginning of the pregnancy. Like there seems to be more resistance here. So what's your view on this? Like why do you think it is that the pork industry hasn't gone the way of the egg industry and just said, Hey, we're gonna stop confining.

SALs in, in [00:40:00] gestation crates. And on this other issue about what was happening, McDonald's, I'd love to know your thoughts. Like, what do you think you know, is there a case to be made for keeping the sows in crates for a month after they've been inseminated? Or should they just be in group housing the whole time

Lisa Keefe: with the caveat that my, my commentary is coming from the market and perhaps overall, well, the market point of view, because I'm, I'm not an animal scientist, I'm not a food scientist. And I think that there is a lot of room for debate around the details, as you mentioned. Okay. If we're gonna use gestation crates or gestation stalls you know, it, it, how long, how many is it?

Is it X number of days? Is it Y number of days? And, and from the point of view of somebody covering the industry that's. Something for the scientists to work out, but in terms of trying to run a business on a day to day basis, that's a little bit in the weeds. And and I think that when [00:41:00] Carl icon, although the man is certainly known knows how to get headlines.

I, I think that. Probably I look at it and I think that's probably a, a more of a, a, an effort on his end to, to raise public awareness of an issue, not really to get McDonald's to agree. Hmm. Interesting. I don't think, well, a lot of, a lot of shareholder proposals actually that they, they have, I mean, the way that the system is, is set up, they have almost no chance of passing 99% of the time, but just the fact that they were proposed by a an activist shareholder group ends up bringing awareness to an issue that that otherwise they felt perhaps was.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. And, and to be queer on these shareholder proposals at, at public companies, even if a hundred percent of the shareholders vote in favor of it, and therefore it quote passes, it's still only advisory. It's not binding on the company to do it. So exactly. You know, it certainly is, [00:42:00] you know, an issue to raise awareness, but I I'll tell you what I, my view of Carl is a little bit different.

I think that he helped to broker in 2012, this agreement with McDonald's and he feels, you know, they, they said within 10 years we'll be done with gestation crates. And now 10 years later, they're saying, okay, well, you know, We aren't really done with gestation crates. We're gonna be not using them for the majority of the pregnancy.

And I think he feels, I haven't spoken to him about this, but I do believe that he feels like that they moved the goal posts and that they're not going through on the deal that he made with them 10 years ago. But I, I don't wanna speak for him. That's just my impression of how he feels

Lisa Keefe: well, moving goalposts is a time honored tradition in business politics and all sorts of things.

So I'm, I'm, I think you're absolutely right on that case, on that

Paul Shapiro: point. yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. So, but you, you

Lisa Keefe: would ask me why, why. Where the battery cages so much so much more quickly adopted mm-hmm . And that [00:43:00] just that the whole gestation stall issue is, is moving more slowly. And it, I, I, I'm going to, I'm not a meat company executive, and I'm not trying to raise hogs, but I'm going to say it's a matter of investment.

One of the things that I find interesting about the point of view of, for example, the global round table for I'm gonna say the global round table for sustainable beef, but it, it also, the is a matter of, of the other global round tables that, that have formed internationally to address these issues in, in other species as well.

But you, you can talk. Sustainability in terms of how you treat the planet. You can talk about sustainability in terms of how you treat your animals, but you also have to talk about sustainability in terms of the existence and the profitability of the company. And it. It doesn't do the economy or the employees or, or the communities where these companies operate much good if they are imposed.

If, if, if, [00:44:00] if they are forced or a regulation is imposed on them to adopt, you know, some sort of technology to do something that is going to be excessively expensive and, and, and put them on a business. Now, what, what, what is excessive is, is gonna be arguable in each company's case. But I think that when we're talking about revamping a hog barn for for housing, the, the animals, as opposed to poultry that you're talking about a very different very different financial investment.

And of course the, the. Meat supply chain is set up in such a way that perhaps often maybe always the financial burden of that falls on on the people who can perhaps least afford to to support

Paul Shapiro: it. Fair, fair enough. Point. I, I will say, like, it's interesting in that in the egg industry, the K three policies affect essentially a hundred percent of the birds.

Whereas the gestation policies affect like 5% of the total pig herd, cuz SALs are such a [00:45:00] tiny portion of all pigs. And so it's not like you have to revamp the entire industry. It's like this tiny portion of the industry that is involved in breeding of piglets. So I, I'm not saying it's not a capital expenditure.

But it's surprising to me that the capital expenditure is for a hundred percent of laying hen, whereas it's only for about 5% of the pigs and yet. I, I wouldn't have expected it to go this way. One theory on this that was offered to me. Well, go ahead. I know you wanna respond

Lisa Keefe: to that. Well, I mean, we're talking about 100% of laying hands it's because if you are raising egg layers and you have a male chick that male chick doesn't see a light of day after a couple of days.

So 100% of your egg laying industry is the HES. Whereas on the hog side, the sows may be a smaller percentage of the overall industry, but on the other hand, you don't have an industry without the sows. And so and so I think that's, you know, that's the big difference there.

Paul Shapiro: Mm, okay. [00:46:00] Interesting. So when I contemplate the meat industry, I, I look at it now and well, first lemme just say on this egg and, and pork issue, I, I do wonder if part of it has to be, has to do with the fact that.

There's a lot of consolidation in the egg industry. Like there's only a few dozen big players, whereas most of these pig farmers, there's like thousands and thousands of them. Now there's a few big pig companies that slaughter, but as far as the farmers are concerned, like it's thousands and thousands of them, like Smithfield doesn't own a lot of the farms that are supplying them as an example.

Whereas the egg companies are like totally vertical vertically integrated for the most part. And so I, I do think it's probably easier to make industrywide decisions when that is the case rather than in the, rather than in the pork industry. Yeah, the,

Lisa Keefe: the meat supply chain is, is very interesting in the sense that you have these independent put quotes around it, independent farmers that are, that are raising the animals for meat and and the economics of that because you, although you're raising the, the hogs, they are under [00:47:00] contract to a particular company.

And a lot of times the farmers They are told exactly for, for, for commercial reasons and for good reasons, they're told exactly how they are supposed to handle those animals and what investments they need to make. And what kind of, what does a barn has to look what the barn has to look like and how much space they have and et cetera.

So, so it's a very interesting situation where you're responsible for the business, but you, but many, many, many decisions are made by folks that are not directly involved in your business. And you have to, well, I guess it's like owning a franchise of, of a restaurant, for example, it's, you know, you're running the business, but you have to do it at according to somebody else's rules.

Paul Shapiro: Hmm. Interesting analogy. Let me ask you then we, so like you probably have a greater bird's eye view of this industry than anybody you've been covering it for a long time. You now are covering both sides, both the conventional and the alternative. Maybe it won't be alternative for too long, who knows.

But for right now it's [00:48:00] alternative. There does seem to me to be some type of a dichotomy in the industry now where you have some players who are embracing this and doing what you said, they have divisions that are devoted, devoted to manufacturing of plant-based meat. They're making investments in cultivated meat companies.

And then you have others who are really taking a far more hostile position toward these disruptors and are trying to pass laws to crack down on them, whether it's on labeling or on other issues. And, and. I do see like some type of a distinction between the cattlemen, for example, the people who actually raise the animals and the companies that are just selling CPG products.

Like it seems like the cattlemen are the ones who are far more oppositional here than the branded meat companies, which are offering their end point based meat lines as well. Maybe they just see it as another opportunity to sell product and they don't care whether the meat comes from animals or from plants.

But what's your advice like if you were to actually, and you know, you're not just a journalist, you're an E editor, so you, you write editorials with your own opinion in them as well. Like if you were [00:49:00] offering advice to people in the immune industry, what would you say? Would it be fight them or join them?

Like, would you say, you know, you should be embracing this as a good opportunity or that you should fight to preserve the status quo? Like what is the, the ki doctrine when it comes to the alt protein industry?

Lisa Keefe: The ki doctrine is messy and the ki doctrine changes. Often based on new information for example, you talk about this being a dichotomy very much a, a binary situation as so many parts of our public discourse.

These days seem to have broken down into very binary positions.

Paul Shapiro: What do you mean? I, I haven't heard of this. Just kidding.

Lisa Keefe: I, yeah, yeah. Can't imagine what we're talking about politics. And and I think that it is not just the meat industry that is approaching that is bringing a hostile attitude to this discussion.

I think that there are not all, but a number of folks [00:50:00] on the alt meat side are the alternative protein side that are, that. Very aggressive in their messaging, which is great. I'm all about passion and dedication. I think that having watched a lot of businesses over a long period of time, that what will eventually happen, whether individual players intended to or not is going to be an erosion, they, they sort of rub against each other and there's maybe an erosion of the sharp points on both sides and some sort of middle ground.

Is found. And the middle ground is determined by the economics, the macroeconomics, and also the business economics involved in terms of, again, price and taste. You, you take the technology and you advance it and you make a plant-based burger that tastes like a million bucks no pun intended. And and it, and, and the [00:51:00] situation is gonna take care of itself, for example.

And, and yeah, the, I mean, from a ranch, from the producer's point of view, from the, from the hog farmer, from the poultry farmer, from the rancher or beef farmer's point of view there, there would be an objection because that is their entire livelihood. As opposed to. Meat company. And, and I think we're thinking of the meat companies in terms of the big conglomerates, the Tysons and the Cargills and the whatever, but the vast majority of meat companies are much smaller.

And and, but they are looking in terms of, I am, I am running a processing business. I am running a factory essentially. And so if my machines are kept busy making a plant-based product Benefits my business, and I'm happy to do that. And I'm, and, and I'm not going to be as an, a big objector because I also have, you know, maybe the other [00:52:00] 90% of my business is still the conventional meat industry, which is, you know, really can't afford to turn their noses up at, at the pro at, at proc.

We can't say I'm not gonna work with you because you're, you're, you're, you're processing plant-based products as well. And I object to that because the, the meat guys the, the producers absolutely have to have somebody who is going to process their animals or they don't stay in business. So so I think that, that you had the process.

Who are much more for, for absolute in your face, day to day, business decision making reasons are happy to to look at it in terms of providing protein, looking at as a protein industry, as opposed to a meat or Al meat industry. I suspect that over a very long period of. That is where the entire sector will go.

Both, both sides of it are, are, are very slowly and incrementally moving in the [00:53:00] direction of becoming a a, a protein industry, whether that's through blended products or flexitarians and that sort of thing companies, most of your plant-based products are, are made on, on machines by meat Packers, who also are co-packing for the plant-based companies.

So so we have a lot of people think of this as two different businesses. And I look at them and I say, there's a tremendous amount of. Not, not in terms of philosophy, but in terms of actual the actual business of getting it from here to there onto the plate are very much covering the same ground.

And you're also the two businesses are aiming at the same consumer. So a lot of the messaging is going to, to is getting closer and closer together. And so I, I don't it is, is a dichotomy. And I feel like to a certain extent, it's a bit of a false dichotomy in the sense of it's a matter of messaging [00:54:00] and what actually is happening on the ground and what is going to continue to happen more and more often on the ground going forward is in fact the, the same operation just coming from using different ingredients and coming from different points of view mm-hmm or coming from different sources, one being plant, and one being animal.

And the way it happens is very different. So.

Paul Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah, it definitely is. You know, one is more of a assembly process and the other is more of a disassembly process. So exactly there some, there are some differences, but in the end, the experience for the consumer hopefully will be roughly the same.

And you know, in the same way that we still have ways to capture our memories, that we call photographs, they're just now done in a different way. Like we don't go into dark rooms anymore. We just do them digitally. Right. I think that, you know, the experience of me will continue to be enjoyed by humanity for a very long time.

Lisa, as we are wrapping up, let me ask you a friend of mine just got back from Scotland and Ireland, and he told me that he tried vegetarian Haas. Now, for those who aren't even familiar with what Haas is, you know, it's like, I think it's like, it's like the [00:55:00] heart and the lungs or something like that of like a good or a sheep.

And they wrap it up in like their intestinal lining or something. It's something that, you know, a lot of people outside of that geography have never even had actual Haus let one vegetarian Haas. So lemme ask you then, is there something that you wish existed. That doesn't yet exist and it doesn't have to be Haas, but you know, something that on the alternative side, the alternative protein side, is there something that, you know, Lisa Keith really wants to try that you haven't had a chance to try yet?

Lisa Keefe: Well, it definitely. And I'm Irish, but I'm gonna say it's definitely not Haas . It's it's, it's a cliche and I know that the industry is working in this direction, but a really good juicy, whole muscle stake that has all the mouth feel all the flavor all of those sensory connections that.

I feel with, with a really good, you know, celebratory steak dinner. And, and, [00:56:00] and like I said, I know they're, they're working on it. And I don't know if it's even scientifically possible, honestly, but it we've got the best minds working on it. So if, if it's possible, they'll find a way. And that would be, that would be my goal.

We

Paul Shapiro: certainly have a lot of smart people working on it. Some of whom are working at the better meet co and I hope Lisa that if you're ever in Sacramento, you'll swing on buy and get a chance to try one of our Maso steaks. They're pretty.

Lisa Keefe: I am actually actively trying to figure out a way to make that happen.

Okay.

Paul Shapiro: Well, the, the red carpet will be rolled out for you. So I look forward to that, Lisa and fantastic. Thanks. So, and thanks so much. I really enjoy reading all of your editorials and articles and listening to your podcast. And I I am especially enthusiastic that ultimate magazine now exists. What a world, that, that is the case.

And maybe in the future, it won't have that same title because it won't be alt anymore at all. It'll just be meat.

Lisa Keefe: We'll see. That would be fantastic. Protein magazine.

Paul Shapiro: all right. Very good. Lisa, Keith editor of alt meat of meeting place and future of just [00:57:00] protein. So thanks again, Lisa.

Lisa Keefe: Thanks, Paul. I appreciate the time.

Thanks

Paul Shapiro: for listening. We hope you found use in this episode. If so, don't keep it to yourself. Please leave us a five star rating on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. And as always, we hope you be in the business of doing good.